CHAT WITH MATTMINUTES 3/3/08

Minutes Started Mon Mar 03 2008 12:01:00 GMT+0000 (UTC)
RobWhite: Hi ArtfulMarket!
Minutes Started Mon Mar 03 2008 15:12:11 GMT+0000 (UTC)
ArtByIris: sorry I didn't hear you
EmilyEJewelry: hi iris. took long enough....
jimchesters joined the room
ArtByIris: hehe
floresflorestanis joined the room
abitabite joined the room
xiane: yes
SoCaliGirl: Yes
starrydesigns: yes
auntifranni: yup
stellaloella: yes
SarahsSky: my boyfriend has a toybreaker tie.. martha is right that they are so nice
GreenMamba: *testing*
stellaloella: HA
xiane: ...wow!
SarahsSky: haha nice
RobWhite: Nice!
anda: MARTHA HAS A BF?
SoCaliGirl: Awesome
EmilyEJewelry: she has a boyfriend and i dont. YIKES
anda: ?!
xiane: !!!!!
starrydesigns: wow :p
SarahsSky: go martha
anda: wow
RobWhite: Whoa.
anda: just wow
stitchandtell: holy cow
SoCaliGirl: Whoa
EmilyEJewelry: sounds like a perfect fit
ToDyeFor: What will the question and answer format be in here?
RobWhite: ...well, nuts.
GreenMamba: You go Rob!
SarahsSky: yes
EmilyEJewelry: yes
ArtByIris: yes
xiane: ouch ;)
SoCaliGirl: Yes
eclipse: yes
SarahSays: that's me :)
SarahSays: law is loud
stellaloella: it's actually surprisingly quiet for background noise in the labs, matt
Cre8TvaT2: Its a heartbeat
SarahsSky: thats great
SoCaliGirl: Hey, that reminds me of when I used to work for Luce Forward
daniellexo: matt sounds like you are in a womb
ArtByIris: i liked the rachel ray promotion but not the martha stewart one
abitabite: you should make some udus and go down there and drum with them
SarahsSky: haha danielle
daniellexo: heartbeat
castleman: uterus
EmilyEJewelry: hahaha
ArtByIris: because it only promoted selling but not so much buying on etsy
starrydesigns: lol
GreenMamba: I don't remember that far back, danielle. and I am ooooold.
SarahsSky: you can wear them anyway
abitabite: its is pulsing like a womb danielle
ToDyeFor: again, what will the question and answer format be in here?
ArtByIris: does anyone actually hear me here?
marymorra joined the room
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HollyhockCreations: can't get the mic button to push with a mac
ArtByIris: yeah
ArtByIris: hear me
SarahsSky: no ArtByIris not unless they have mics and webcams enabled
ArtByIris: no I mean read
soap: lol
abitabite: admin is the only one with the mic on it is a mess when more than one person uses a mic
ArtByIris: I see now that you read it's my first time here
stellaloella: the workshop slows down a LOT when there are multiple video/audio feeds
RobWhite: Awesome.
neawear: gosh I come back and cutie matt is on ;)
xiane: rock.
starrydesigns: lol nea
anda: are minutes being taken?
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stellaloella: minutes are on
Minutes Stopped Mon Mar 03 2008 15:16:13 GMT+0000 (UTC)
Minutes Started Mon Mar 03 2008 15:16:16 GMT+0000 (UTC)
soap: lol nea
neawear: :D
abitabite: ey anda i have been enjoying Sidonies pics in your flickr
cassowaryjewelry: is this the policy chat?
starrydesigns: ok no more nonsense talk :p
stonesoupsupplies joined the room
SoCaliGirl: Sounds good matt
daniellexo: sidonie is a dream boat
anda: http://www.flickr.com/photos/paperairplanes/2304477415/in/photostream/
anda: hahahha
abitabite: so much hair haha
historicallyinspired joined the room
quirke joined the room
xiane: so tiny!
anda: i keep posting that
moonstr joined the room
starrydesigns: hey quirke ;)
neawear: awwww
eclipse: hi quirke
neawear: hey quirke!
quirke: hi starry, eclipse, nea
SarahsSky: aw what a cute picture
SoCaliGirl: babies are wonderful
emilybidwell joined the room
winenutnyc joined the room
stonesoupsupplies: hello...
starrydesigns: quirke come sit beside me ;)
TheCraftyWino: hi SoCal!
soap: hey stonesoup, quirke
soap: hey emily
quirke: where are you starry?
SoCaliGirl: Hi Wino!!!
emilybidwell: Hello!
TheCraftyWino: ;D
soap: charles
AltheaRosea joined the room
winenutnyc: Hello!hello
marymorra: Hi, is there a proper way to ask a question when this starts?
HollyhockCreations left the room
starrydesigns: bottom left. first row
winenutnyc: hi soap
starrydesigns: there :p
TheCraftyWino: moooooon~
Rokali joined the room
daniellexo: hi soap too
cassowaryjewelry: ooo!
stonesoupsupplies: hey, matt,thanks for doing this -
ArtByIris: is there a comments mode?
starrydesigns: hey rob
xiane: you can type /ask and follow with your question
SarahsSky: hey rokali
SoCaliGirl: Hey Rob!!
soap: :)
RobWhite: Hi Rob! (And hi Charles! Hi Emily!)
Rokali: Hello!
neawear: rob!
soap: hey rob
TheCraftyWino: Hi Rob ;)
xiane: Hi rob!
stonesoupsupplies: wow, all the cool people are here ;)
abitabite: well done on mathra Rokali
moonstr: hi rob
stellaloella: question mode works like this. you type /ask then your question. it goes in a queue. matt picks it to answer it
Rokali: thanks, abitabite
cassowaryjewelry: oh thanks
ToDyeFor: It's a shame more people couldn't be here
SoCaliGirl: Hey stella
JDWolfePottery joined the room
neawear: rob's a *star*
anda: also, when chat is turned off (which might work better) everyone gets a prompt when they try to talk
moonstr: hi socaligirlie
anda: on how to ask questions
SoCaliGirl: Moonstrama!!!
TheCraftyWino: hi stella ;)
moonstr: wiiino:)
TheCraftyWino: hehe
neawear: yes
stitchandtell: yes
abitabite: yup
SarahsSky: start : )
ToDyeFor: yes
auntifranni: yes
xiane: :)
schOOLLOcker: will you read the question out loud & then answer? I want to listen while I work.
JDWolfePottery left the room
GreenMamba: Are questions enabled yet?
stellaloella: big winter storm in st louis today :(
stellaloella: me too!
cassowaryjewelry: :(
xiane: eek!
soap: :(
TheCraftyWino: I know, going to be nasty
TheCraftyWino: good for the hotel, bad for the commute
stonesoupsupplies asks, Matt, I have a question about Etsy as an "owner" of business information - Lauren and Sarah have heard this before. are there limitations regarding how we can access our shop information if we're suspended, closed, whatever?
bethgumnick joined the room
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SarahSays: hey
SarahSays: most of this information will be emailed to you
thegypsyjewels joined the room
SarahSays: like transactions and such
stellaloella: we do tryt o accomodate people who need to rerieve info after a closure
SarahSays: exactly
emilybidwell: if an account is closed, and the seller gets back to support, we can reopen the account so that you have access to it
GreenMamba asks, I'd like to start off by asking a tough question: Why Etsy has occasionally acted contrary to the position it asserts in the TOS by becoming directly involved in some transaction disputes? Not having a consistent process is confusing to members.
SarahSays: we will work with you if we need to.
castleman asks, there seems to be a lot of ranchor about admin who also sell on etsy not following the same set of rules that those of us who are not admin follow
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emilybidwell: Our transaction dispute policy is to ask the seller and the buyer to work it. The notification is to help get peole communicating.
stellaloella: paraphrashe matt: it's important for admin to sell too, to understand the site. the rules apply to everyone equally
stellaloella: *paraphrase, i mean
SoCaliGirl asks, How are relations between Etsy and its sellers are going to be repaired after this latest round of incidents/problems? As you can imagine the response from some Admins this last week were less than stellar.
stellaloella: (just for folks who may not be able to hear matt)
SarahSays: this is a great first step forward, matt
stellaloella: paraphrase matt: moving forward, we want to lead by our actions, improve communications. we want everyone to feel welcome and do all we can to do that
ttgart joined the room
soap asks, does etsy have safeguards in place to prevent accidental closures, suspensions, etc?
ArtByIris: what does who's/next/brick/wall mean?
AltheaRosea: Shop is closed
ToDyeFor asks, The forums are becoming a place where sellers/buyers are afraid to speak their minds in fear of having what they say used against them, will that change and how do you plan to do that?
stellaloella: paraphrase matt: we have amde a few mistakes. rightnow, we're reworking the policies to prevent that
SarahSays: if you're afraid to speak your mind, please email community[!at]etsy.com
stellaloella: paraphrase matt: yeah, we want the forums to be a place for discussion, as long as we keep it nice, play fair, we should be able to have those tough discussionson Etsy. you can always email us, too.
daniellexo: we should all respect each other so that we are all open to conversations and so all of us aren't afraid to respectufully discuss issues.
ArtByIris: but why is wh's next brick wall a name of a chatroom?
daniellexo: sorry typos.. new keyboard
RobWhite: That's partially a glitch and partially user-created.
GreenMamba asks, I would like to suggest that Etsy remove itself from the dispute process and let feedback reflect the public record of each transaction. Etsy has stated that it reserves the right to terminate shops that do not maintain a certain level of positive feedback.
SarahSays: thanks for that suggestion
bethela: any other thoughts on this?
stellaloella: paraphrasing matt: let's discuss that more, it's one of the big issues.
EmilyEJewelry: yes, but how come one dispute can screw you over completely when a buyer can have like 15 negatives??
AltheaRosea: Paypal seems to send quick responces
neawear: oh we can type! lol sorry didnt realise it
SarahsSky: i think sometimes help is needed with a dispute
lookability joined the room
cassowaryjewelry: maybe you are right emily.
quirke: what does etsy see as the benefits of continuing to be involved in the dispute process? are there any?
castleman: i guess i think that when etsy gets involved it gets messier
EmilyEJewelry: yes. ive needed help before
neawear: it is true that feedback needs to have its purpose
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stitchandtell: as a shop owner - I feel that this is my business and should be handled without big brother stepping all over it.....JMO
stonesoupsupplies: or...perhaps it makes sense to allow responses to feedback, to help clafiry situations where it might be abused
cassowaryjewelry: People are mad at ebay because they are too buyer friendly
castleman: i agree with soap
eclipse: I had the idea that a negative % is too harsh on those with few sales and too leniant on those with many sales, so a better system would be a flat rate of something like 5 negatives in 30 days
EmilyEJewelry: i cant hear you
GreenMamba: I agree with castleman.
stellaloella: when we review feedback, we look for patterns -- if it's the same transaction, same buyer... or if it's many different buyers with the same issue
AltheaRosea: and there are weird issues, I've had so many packages lost in usps
starrydesigns: There needs to be some clearcut rules on how the complaint process should be handled.
xiane: feedback needs to be accurately reflected in the percentage show, though
soap: buyers and seller
historicallyinspired: I agree with eclipse.
ToDyeFor: Sometimes help is needed, but I think that most of these recent disputes were completely misdirected
eclipse: from unique users
emilybidwell: I think we need a better feedback system
SoCaliGirl: I think its important that this process is adhered to. It is a consistent and fair policy.
xiane: I agree, emily
EmilyEJewelry: yes, yes.
soap: yes
GreenMamba: Unless there are designated dispute resolution admins, there are just too many variables.
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SoCaliGirl: I agree with that Emily
neawear: true, there's two sides to each story, and now a neg doesnt easily see you the other side either
historicallyinspired: I've been in a situation where the buyer left negative feedback over a completely resolvable situation without contacting me.
stonesoupsupplies: that's why I'd like to have the ability to respond to negative feedback if it comes up
starrydesigns: I agree with GM. Designated dispute admins is good.
abitabite: if etsy wasnt involved in disputes does that mean they couldnt remove retiltory feedback too?
xiane: I think that's a fair idea, green mamba
TheCraftyWino: Ebay has a remove negative feedback feature after the dispute has been resolved
emilybidwell: we don't mediate disputes, we just try to get the seller and buyer in touch with eachother
historicallyinspired: Responding would be great, stonesoup.
daniellexo: Feedback isn't always accurate - as a seller I like having support as a sort of jury.
thegypsyjewels: We also need to be abvle to respond to feedback...
castleman: i suggest a policy like ebaythat simply tries to stand in line of co
SoCaliGirl: Yes, specific admins are good.
stellaloella: we have kiss & make uop to remove negative feedback once a dispute is resolved
quirke: 1) you should be able to respond to feedback, 2) there should be a time limit on feedback
EmilyEJewelry: maybe have a multiple choice thingy to say a negative is for A, not as pictured B, never delivered etc
soap: ideally, i'd like etsy to not get involved in the transaction itself. right now, it's too open to abuse or the buyers don't understand
SarahSays: and sometimes, our emails can go to spam :(
cassowaryjewelry: I'd like to be able to remove neutrals too
AltheaRosea: yeah
ArtByIris: msg/yes
daniellexo: Agree.
neawear: quirke #1 totally agree
SoCaliGirl: That can also be used with a complete overhaul of the convo system.
abitabite: hey could we make it possible to have a message pop up that when you ceck the negative radio button to ask if you have tried to resolve it with the seller first?
castleman: ebay's current policy is simply to act as a "go between" i think
thegypsyjewels: I would also like to be able to remove nuetrals
stellaloella: paraphrasing matt: make sure your email addy on file is accurate and one you check
SarahsSky: folders in our conversations would help a lot in being able to communicate
castleman: they simply coordinate communication
soap: i agree with the time limit on feedback. matt, you guys can use convos + email
emilybidwell: but....it would be better if the feedback was use. I like the idea of using a rating system for specific qualities rather than text based feedback
daniellexo: Interesting, abitabite.
historicallyinspired: love abitabite's idea. Some "do you really mean it" control over negatives would be great.
xiane: a time limit on feedback would be SO great
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emilybidwell: like 60 days or so
eclipse: paypal resoution process could take care of many of these issues
auntifranni: time limit on feedback would be awesome
soap: omg, no detailed fb please
neawear: it is very difficult for people communicating in other languages too, meaning i have french speaking buyers and I cant send them to Etsy for help for example... would you suggest only using English?
castleman: what ebay has gone to with the stars sucks
EmilyEJewelry: i dont
xiane: I agree, castleman!
xiane: so terrible
starrydesigns: i agree, soap.
quirke: i think it should be pointed out that all sellers are buyers too, and it seems clear that many of us think that the fb system greatly favours buyers over sellers
gilbea: Yeah I can't send the spanish people to etsy neither
soap: i agree rita
AltheaRosea: yeah, because you don't want to give a - for a small glitch that isn't great but you don't want to leave a -
castleman: i like the current fb system here
emilybidwell: why don't you like the stars?
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gilbea: but I suppose making our descriptions Bilinguag would help :)
cassowaryjewelry: because if they don't know how much things cost to ship
cassowaryjewelry: they ding you on shipping.
stellaloella: right now, Etsy support and help is limited to English. we hope to change that in the future
xiane: they're really inaccurate
neawear: ok thanks stella
ToDyeFor: The current feedback system while better than most , still needs work.
quirke: having stars or a numerical system like 1-5 will actually give most people a lower fb rating then they already have
starrydesigns: Do you have a way to handle disputes with regards to international shipping?
GreenMamba: I don't necessarily have an issue with the feedback system, but as I stated, it isn't really allowed to carry any weight if admins intervene.
SoCaliGirl: Maybe an idea on calming fears over not receiving something a new few days would be something to the effect in the order e-mail of a "Please remember, the postal systems times vary. We recommend waiting up to 10 days for your order from time of shipment."
gilbea: thanks stella! :)
castleman: my big issue is that etsy seems to get involved in situations that make our store policies void
AltheaRosea: good idea
neawear: ys because customs I cant control them... lol
castleman: i don't like that
starrydesigns: more than 10 days actually, socali. sometimes 6 weeks.
abitabite: i agree SoCaliGirl
neawear: exactly, starry
AltheaRosea: on the shi[[ing reference
quirke: ditto starry
SoCaliGirl: Exactly. It was just a basic idea that can be tweaked
ArtByIris: I mean talks other places, groups etc
xiane: and longer if you're in Italy ;)
EmilyEJewelry: paypal does as well. you can return an item up to 45 days after purchase
stellaloella: it's hard to implement shipping time standards across the site. international post is hard to gauge. also, if it's a custom item, there is the time involved in making before shipping to consider
soap: forget even the 10 days - just a statement saying buyers have no control over usps transit times, customs, etc
bethgumnick: It might be helpful to have a not like SoCaliGirl in place when a buyer is about to leave a negative, just to make them think about it first.
cassowaryjewelry: sellers.
GreenMamba: Very, very important issue castleman.
castleman: if we are told we can set store policies than our store policies should carry the weight with etsy
stonesoupsupplies: And also perhaps something like, "Please refer to your seller's shop policies for information about delivery, returns, etc. Each seller is responsible for his/her own transactions, and timing and policies may differ from shop to shop"
quirke: perhaps you shouldn't be able to leave feedback for a certain amount of time
abitabite: i cringe when i send to canada coz sometimes it takes a couple of days and sometimes it takes a billion years
EmilyEJewelry: this is moving too quickly
soap: exactly, lauren
castleman: (obviously paypal ads a whole different level)
soap: i agree with stonesoup - maybe refer to seller policies
neawear: lol lots of international sellers here too
gilbea: well, I ordered something from the US a couple weeks ago, and I'm not worried yet
xiane: it seems to me if paypal is the standard for payment, using their guidelines would be reasonable
TheCraftyWino: abita I agree, I've had varying time frames with different packages
castleman: i agree xiane
SarahsSky: i think etsy should involve itself when help is asked for.. it would be awful to have no where to turn when you were having an issue you couldnt resolve
gilbea: I suppose the shop announcement or the profile should state clearly more or less how many days does the package take
SoCaliGirl: Back to Etsy.. Should Etsy be involved with shop disputes in the form of shop closures. No.
thegypsyjewels: no
ToDyeFor: NO
TheCraftyWino: as a 3rd party intermediary
moonstr: no
SoCaliGirl: Maybe as a mediator, but not as an enforcer
stonesoupsupplies: I would like Etsy to stay out as much as possible
SarahsSky: yes
quirke: no, not in non-delivery cases
abitabite: i think etsy should mediate but leave it up to paypal inforce the whole refund ting (tat doesnt help for cheques though)
starrydesigns: No
soap: xi, pp only has the seller protection for us, can, uk and maybe australia only
auntifranni: i agree with SoCaliGirl
cassowaryjewelry: eh, I think that maybe if we report a person for nonpayment three times
castleman: i think if there are enough problems clearly etsy has to deal with that
SarahSays: it's hard because Etsy is in the middle.
EmilyEJewelry: as a mediator
xiane: only as a mediator, if asked for
neawear: just that I think Etsy should YES help international sellers but supporting them for shiping delays. this is very important to us
emilybidwell: Currently, store policy is king. However, you need to be able to fill orders to be a seller on Etsy.
cassowaryjewelry: they should go..
xiane: that's true soap
daniellexo: Hey guys if you have specific questions you should use the questions function to make sure it gets answered.
castleman: however, they should be looking for a pattern of behavior not isolated incidents
stonesoupsupplies: and, if etsy is going to mediate, there needs to be a set of rules like the billing rules, to give context for the mediation
historicallyinspired: I agree, it would be nice to have a mediator if desired.
historicallyinspired: ditto stonesoup
GreenMamba: I'm with stomesoup. etsy doesn't need to be involved in matters between sellers and buyers.
xiane: agree, stonesoup
EmilyEJewelry: will this only chat be written out somewhere where i can read it? cause im getting overwhelmed here
RobWhite: Yep.
ToDyeFor: According to another admin though, Etsy policy takes front seat to sellers store policy
SoCaliGirl: That's where the feedback system should be in place. If Etsy has a review system of negative feedbacks, then take action, but not over 1 non delivery should a shop ever be closed
RobWhite: We'll get the minutes at the end of the meeting.
stellaloella: usually, buyers contact etsy when they need a mediator.
EmilyEJewelry: ok. good.
soap: agree with stonesoup
castleman: i don't think it's reasonable to suggest that etsy should not remove sellers that don't deliver tho
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thegypsyjewels: Our store policy should stand ALONE..
bethgumnick: since sellers are customers of etsy's just as buyers are, it seems that they should be a neutral mediator whenever possible, rather than assuming a side.
soap: i agree with castleman
castleman: which sounds like the natural progression from : stay out of our store business
neawear: as a pattern, true castleman !
SoCaliGirl: Cas, I think that's where someone should be dedicated to the review.
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cassowaryjewelry: well, if they don't deliver 5 o 6 items..
starrydesigns: Our store policy should stand.
stitchandtell: EXACTLY GJ!!
emilybidwell: Etsy does not currently medaite transaction disputes. We ask aseeler to contact the buyer to work it out.
emilybidwell: seller
cassowaryjewelry: but once a package took a month to get to me.
eclipse: I agree with castleman too, there have been extreme cases that should be closed, but that was more than just non-delivery
SarahSays: Unfortunately, there's a lot of misinformation out there because Etsy cannot tell our side of the story.
GreenMamba: But, Matt, that is what feedback is for.
eclipse: it was that plus retaliatory feedback, abusive emails, etc
ToDyeFor: You ask buyers to contact sellers, but it seems quite obvious from recent situations that Etsy is infact taking a side
gilbea: wow I can hear now yay!
thegypsyjewels: That IS what feedback is for..
daniellexo: Feedback helps you decide if you should buy from a seller.
SarahsSky: feedback is for that but assistance should be there if it is needed and sometimes it is
TheCraftyWino: lol
neawear: there should be a reply system to a neg, so eac side gets their sorty out and its easily READ!
daniellexo: (Not that I have a strong opinion on whether feedback should relate to shop closures. Just wanted to share.)
abitabite: ToDyeFor i am sorry but you dont know if the situations you have heard about are true or not
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quirke: how many people here have decided to buy from someone or not based on their feedback???
ToDyeFor: I think it would be more helpful for Etsy to get some clear and precise rules in place
GreenMamba: I believe removing shops based on feedback, rather than individual transactions, would be a reasonable and equitable process - although it might help to know a bit more about the percentage required. I noticed that the formula that used to be there was recently removed from the TOS.
SarahsSky: i thinkyou dont hear about all the situations that get resolved peacefully because people arent making threads about them in the forums
ArtByIris: I have a comment about the Martha Stewart promotion, I wonder where I should address it to?
thegypsyjewels: I agree Greenmamba
gilbea: me
abitabite: GreenMamba what about the people that are scared to leave truthful feedback?
ToDyeFor: I may not know both sides, but the fact is, there are obvious issues that need to be taken care of
xiane: I think the feedback percentage system is pretty borked as it stands
stellaloella: unfortunately, there are ways to game the feedback system -- so we keep the threshhold number private to prevent people from skirting the rules
EmilyEJewelry: *iris needs to take a yoga breath before she comments on ms MS*
gilbea: I think feedback is very important
gilbea: I always look at it before buying
stonesoupsupplies: did my question about a shop policy form come through?
TheCraftyWino: If the seller and buyer do not come to a resolution then Etsy can step in as a mediator
stonesoupsupplies: OK...
SarahSays: As a buyer what are your concerns in this matter?
quirke: agreed with craftywino
bethgumnick: etsy should remain as neutral as possible in disputes.
GreenMamba: What would they be afraid of? retaliatory feedback is not allowed, and will be removed.
SarahSays: As a seller, what are your concerns?
thegypsyjewels: Our store policy should stand
quirke: Etsy as a mediator should be the last step
SoCaliGirl: Yes, but only when asked for. The feedback is important for Etsy to look at as well. I mean, Etsy should utilize the convo system to get ahold of buys saying something like "Hey, we received a message from this buyer. Could you get ahold of her to work it out? Thanks." Don't rely on e-mail only
gilbea: yes, as a buyer I feel that if my product is not dlivered
gilbea: etsy should help me
gilbea: but thats just my opinion
soap: yes, store policies should be respected.
abitabite: GreenMamba ive heard plenty of people say that though - i dont know why
TheCraftyWino: only then and a last effort to resolve...opps typed to slow
starrydesigns: always encourage the buyer to contact the seller first.
TheCraftyWino: lol
ttgart: As a seller I want minimal mediation but as a buyer I expect some sort of help with problem purchases from the etsy
stellaloella: we are working on some new communication tools for the transaction report process
neawear: defining "retaliatory feedback" SHOULD be defined more precisely
ArtByIris: I think buyer seller disputes should be dealt with on a case by case basis, and not automatically by the machine/computer
SoCaliGirl: Great Stella, thanks!
stitchandtell: store policy and the handling of business should be in the shops hands...not etsy, otherwise etsy should buy from us and then sell, or have consignments.....
TheCraftyWino: As a seller I want to resolve it first, then ask for help if needed
SarahsSky: yay stellaloella
abitabite: i am not a big fan of a ranking system, but i think people would be more likely to use it honestly
soap: if you're concerned about extreme issues e.g. refusing service based on ethnicity, etc., that seems better addressed by your tous
starrydesigns: let the buyer know that each store's policies stand.
eclipse: as a buyer I would use paypalreslution or credit card chargeback to get my money back
SarahSays: jok
SarahSays: pl
SarahSays: ah, i cant type
GreenMamba: I think Etsy should do what is reasonable and makes the most business sense, not what is based on hunches or poossible fears.
daniellexo: Ranking? Like ranking your transaction?
cassowaryjewelry: *blushes* you're so good greenmamba
soap: i stopped givign fb at ebay because of their detailed seller ratings
SarahSays: so as a buyer, you wouldnt come to etsy with an issue?
lookability: we need a place for "policies" outside of our profile
castleman: i did
EmilyEJewelry: i have
xiane: agreed, lookaility
bethgumnick: i agree lookability.
gilbea: agree
quirke: Sarah, only as a last resort
castleman: when i had an item not delivered forever i went to etsy
cassowaryjewelry: *agrees*
AltheaRosea: agree'
soap: sarah, i don't think a buyer should go to etsy
EmilyEJewelry: agree
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stitchandtell: etsy was not involved in the cash transaction.....paypal is....I would go there first
neawear: im not sure... im actually thinking about this these days...
castleman: what i was looking for was some attempt to mediate
emilybidwell: We close accounts when the buyer and etsy never hear back from the seller. However, emailing is not always reliable.New tools will help the emailing/notification process. Maybe we should send notifications, but not have them result with suspension? At that point, the buyer uses feedback?
castleman: instead i just got an email sayign the store would be closed
ToDyeFor: Sellers should have open communication with their buyers.
starrydesigns: add a policies section to our store
castleman: that doesn't feel like mediation
castleman: at all
emilybidwell: yea - we don't mediate
daniellexo: We so send the buyer to paypal, don't we Emily?
quirke: i think most buyers who have a simple complaint wouldn't want to see the store closed ove rit
TheCraftyWino: Buyers need to read where ever we note our policies are. It's like a contract...ready everything first before you sign
neawear: buyers shoudl have open communication with sellers, too!
daniellexo: (do)
neawear: lol
ToDyeFor: I agree
SoCaliGirl: emily, however, it might be that the seller has decided that the problem is frivolous and not within their own store policies.
daniellexo: Yes definately!
SarahSays: open communication is absolutely key here
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emilybidwell: we try to put the seller in touch with the buyer to work it out
xiane: mediation should involve detailed discussion with all parties before action is taken
SarahsSky: cant you just freeze their ability to list new items instead of suspending the shop
SoCaliGirl: Exactly Xiane
GreenMamba: I think that any user should feel free to approach etsy about any issue. But Etsy's reaction to each situation should eb based on procedure, and less on the case-by-case method, SarahSays.
daniellexo: Maybe there is a way we can remind buyers to solve situations with sellers before bringing it to us first.
emilybidwell: if the seller can't do this, it usually is a major red flag
TheCraftyWino: good idea Sarah
stellaloella: the proboccurs when one party fails to communicate
daniellexo: A better way - I mean.
stellaloella: *problem occurrs
abitabite: i like that idea sarahasky
xiane: we have a fantastic tool here in the labs - something like this could be a good way for a private mediation to happen
SoCaliGirl: The buyer should furnish proof that the seller has not responded to them directly, before Etsy should even consider taking action.
neawear: ok, so what to do if a buyer does not respond quickly? i mean i look bad all that time, but my side of the story isn't known...
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starrydesigns: Maybe under "cancel a sale", make them check "i have tried to contact seller already"
castleman: i dislike the "case by case" an answer
ToDyeFor: I think many disputes here are because Etsy and sellers have poor communication
cassowaryjewelry: but this room is for people with fast connections
stitchandtell: and between admin and users.....we need open communication with all
xiane: starry, I like that
daniellexo: Perhaps in the feedback area before you leave neg. feedback you are asked if you tried to contact the seller first?
eclipse: Before closing a shop for non-delivery, check if the buyer even paid for it. If the buyer does not provide proof of payment, no action should be taken.
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SarahSays: we all hate "case by case" but there are just so many factors to take into consideration. We are working on a more clear cut system.
historicallyinspired: daneillexo--that would be a good first step, but more is clearly needed.
quirke: i agree with eclipse
castleman: it allows the appearance of impropriety even nothing wrong has been done
ToDyeFor: I also think admin all need to be on the same page instead of one saying one thing and another saying something completely differetn
SoCaliGirl: All policies can work for a case by case type of scenario
abitabite: good point eclipse
dottyral: Starry and Danielle, excellent ideas.
bethgumnick: it seems like a very simple way to deal with the store closing issue is to have telephone numbers and make a telephone and address contact before a store is closed. Seems old-fashioned, I know.
ToDyeFor: Not to be a smart ass, but it seems like some admin haven't even read the rules
emilybidwell: if we don't use case by case POV, then good sellers could really be negatively impacted (I think)
daniellexo: Yes of course - just a little idea :)
SoCaliGirl: That can be resolved with solid training.
EmilyEJewelry: yes, there should be some sort of multiple choice for why a certain feedback is left
neawear: OMG no
neawear: lol
castleman: good sellers appear to already being impacted emily
SarahsSky: no phones
TheCraftyWino: brb
SarahsSky: ack
xiane: I like the idea of a flow chart type thing that everyone could see
SarahSays: It all comes down to better communication
SarahSays: between buyers and sellers and the community and etsy
xiane: buyers and sellers alike
starrydesigns: flow chart sounds good
SoCaliGirl: Yes, and solid training
quirke: is etsy really going to call people in australia at 2am?
bethgumnick: i only mean for etsy to be able to contact us by phone, not just anybody
xiane: I heart flow charts :)
soap: and safeguards
neawear: lol
abitabite: i think swe could use the virtual labs for better communication
neawear: quirke, true
schOOLLOcker: etsy needs to facilitate the *better communication* ... when a buyer or seller leavers neg or neut. fb, maybe a reminder window should pop up... "did you communicate with your seller/buyer about this issue?" and have them initial it. Blank negs/neut w/o any communication helps nobody.
daniellexo: SarahsSky and SarahSays - can't keep you two straight!
daniellexo: :)
SarahsSky: haha im sorry
SarahSays: me too
SarahsSky: im orange
SarahSays: hi sarah
GreenMamba: True. These recent issues have affected many good sellers. it has had negative impact.
SarahsSky: shes pink
SarahSays: i'm pink
EmilyEJewelry: some people are also just difficult and beyond repair hahahaha
SarahsSky: hi sarah haha
soap: i agree with school
ToDyeFor: Maybe Etsy needs to re-evaluate their staff positions as far as who is doing what
daniellexo: haha
SarahSays: <-- esquire
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neawear: lol
SoCaliGirl: Yes, there are some buyers and sellers who will never be happy.
SarahSays: we all have a similar goal
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ToDyeFor: I know you do Matt
SarahSays: we want to work with you
SarahSays: we love you!
EmilyEJewelry: yes, or make up stuff
neawear: yeah :)
cassowaryjewelry asks, will there be changes in the flagging system?
SarahSays: yes
neawear: oh gah yes its not working
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soap asks, emily says support is available - is that true on the weekends too?
SarahSays: yes
emilybidwell: s
stellaloella: paraphrasing matt: we do investigate everything that's flagged. it takes time. we need to create bettert tools for the flagging team
SoCaliGirl: Would a dedicated specialist help with the flagging?
emilybidwell: oubled our staff!
sarawearsskirts: hi, new support people!
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GreenMamba asks, I believe that would be a reasonable and equitable process - although it might help to know a bit more about the percentage required. I noticed that the formula that used to be there was recently removed from the TOS.
stellaloella: SoCaliGirl we have one :)
xiane: excellent on having more coverage!
starrydesigns: were the open positions published in the jobs section?
SoCaliGirl: great stella!
stitchandtell asks, Will Etsy approach the subject of a team of sellers - that are NOT directly linked to Etsy admin - to assist in the choice to close a shop, mute a seller - or remove a buyer, as that is an issue as well with several sellers? a board of sorts?
abitabite: can we turn the chatter off the questions are scrolling away
SarahSays: good idea, we'll think about it
soap: omg, that's a bad idea
soap: sorry
castleman asks, have you considered hiring a professional forum moderating service so that the "misspeaking" that some admin seem to do could be eliminated
soap: interfering with another's business?
stellaloella: paraphrase matt: that's an interesting idea, but there's confidential info involved in those issues
SoCaliGirl: That could leave it open for someone to be vindictive
eclipse: I don't think i'd like that either
neawear: lol soap
stellaloella: paraphrase matt: not a 3rd-party team. the idea is to have our team be better
xiane: i like having admin who understand how etsy works
SarahSays: i do too xiane
stitchandtell: I am speaking of a sounding board to work with admin....to keep the best interests of all involved.....
xiane: it's just having everyone communicating better :)
neawear: lol
CrochetMaggie: hahaha
castleman: but your team comes to the forums with preconcieved ideas about certain sellers
gilbea: lol college police hah
EmilyEJewelry: yeah, those skinny dweebs with guns
castleman: doesn't that ocncern you?
SarahSays: we're all human
RobWhite: I definitely didn't have that as I came in.
ToDyeFor: yes...we are!
SarahSays: matt is better than human
eclipse: customers are also human ;)
daniellexo: pass the gallon greenmamba!
stellaloella: matt DOES love everybody :)
CrochetMaggie: I love that Etsy is human, for the good and bad
SoCaliGirl: Sarah, I think that in most customer service policies, that you have to be better than just human.
starrydesigns: will employees be sent for professional customer service training?
TheCraftyWino: lol
castleman: that is probably true rob...but sellers in particular do have feelings about other sellers
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SoCaliGirl: I think that would be definitely be an asset, Matt
neawear asks, how can Canadian sellers be protected in case of a dispute, if confirmation is SO not affordable here... Many Canadians are scared because Etsy doesn't consider the customs slip as proof, neither are the receipts from CanadaPost... This worries me!
daniellexo: neawear
gilbea: as for any other international seller
neawear: yes
emilybidwell: we consider customs form as proof
daniellexo: i believe we do
AltheaRosea: good point
daniellexo: yes!
gilbea: In spain we don't get customs forms!
emilybidwell: please see storque article
gilbea: :(
quirke: not all Can pkgs get forms yo ucan keep
starrydesigns: Not every country keeps a copy of the customs form
eclipse: even though it doesnt have the address?
daniellexo: how do we get this info out to our canadian sellers then?
neawear: ok, i thought i read danielle saying the opposite the other day and to take confirmation
daniellexo: NO
quirke: some are just a sticker that goes on the pkg
daniellexo: def. not!
neawear: ok sorry dear
quirke: there is no proof to keep
emilybidwell: get a receipt at the post office that you made a purchase - this is proof for us
cassowaryjewelry: sorry..
GreenMamba: nea, that is just one of the reasons why, with global membership and so may variable, Etsy should not be involved in disputes.
gilbea: what happens to international sellers that ship regular mail?
starrydesigns: Mine is just a sticker that goes on. No proof whatsoever
soap: emilybidwell, what about us to abroad? we don't get any part of the customs for unless we ship priority or higher
quirke: even though the receipt has no address etc?
gilbea: what will be our proof of having sent the package?
xiane: international mailing can be so very complicated. :/
emilybidwell: in most cases, you don't need to give us proof - just work with the buyer! :)
stitchandtell asks, regarding forums....will you give admin a way to remove a post without closing a thread? So many great discussion are shut down over a few bad posts....
neawear: exactly starry, we the sellers stick the form on it, anyway
daniellexo: I agree.
soap: would a photo of the package with full labeling work as proof?
daniellexo: Thanks stitchandtell!
SoCaliGirl: stitch, this would be an awesome asset.
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EmilyEJewelry: yes agree!!!!
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daniellexo: I'd love to remove some of my posts sometimes :X
quirke: some people deliberately inflame a conversation just to get it shut down
TheCraftyWino: great idea!
eclipse: especialy when there is calling out that harms someone's reputation
quirke: that needs t obe stopped
EmilyEJewelry: awe danielle. MEANIES!!
daniellexo: He he.
neawear: lol danielle ;) sorry dear, misread u I think :)
castleman: removing certain posts can be a real problem because it allows people to change the tone of what they said, after people have already reacted
xiane: agree with everyone
abitabite: as a person who has had many nasty threads started about er regarding what i make... i want the people who have called me out to remain responcible for that action
EmilyEJewelry: :O(( it happens to everyone
SarahSays: it's so hard
daniellexo: There are a lot of improvements to be made to the forums and that is one great suggestion.
stellaloella: i think there's a balance that we can find.
stellaloella: we need improved tools for the forums, for certsain
stitchandtell: sometimes editing a post can calm the fires that tend to flare up over a few problematic posters
quirke: but you do have the ability to change a post
SarahSays: good point stella
SarahsSky: i think it would be great to be able to mark your thread as answered if you had a question and its finished with.. so that a million more people dont come and jump down your throat and give the same answer the first million gave
quirke: you've done it before
eclipse: if the calling out names names, then it's searchable forVER by your shop name
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castleman: but what happens when an admin removes a comment that they made
daniellexo: No.. I don't think we should edit other peoples voices.
castleman: that seems utterly unfair
neawear: PetitOiseau !
Duet: the good points of a locked thread can be revisited in a new thread
quirke: Etsy has altered posts before
RobWhite: We can make sure that an admin presence is noticeable and that we can take action based on events within threads, but, taking the gravity of whatever occurs into account, keep the thread open.
SarahSays: no, we are responsible too
neawear: yes
xiane: admin should not be removing their own comments, imo
abitabite: being called out has always goten me sales - it makes the person who does it look bad, not me
neawear: true
stitchandtell: edit = remove.....not enough coffe today.....
stellaloella: Etsy only alters posts in the forums currently, if there is private info revealed -- like someone's phone number, for example
quirke: that's what i mean stella
thegypsyjewels: It has happened and it is unfair!
starrydesigns: admins' comments should never be removed.
bethgumnick: how about a forum section for immediate help that is totally moderated-- with an admin present to approve posts, that would provide for immediate assistance in the case of important issues like shop closures. This might help keep those desperate posts out of the other areas.
SarahSays: Exactly matt
daniellexo: Oh geez. I was teasing. Sorry guys.
neawear: thats not true sorry :(
neawear: that comments from admins have been removed ONLY because of private ninfo
neawear: its not true
neawear: recently in fact
neawear: anywho
SarahSays: We have had to delete threads when we get legal notice
neawear: lol
SarahSays: if that's what you're talking about
AltheaRosea: the address
quirke: can we talk about comment moderation in the Storque?
neawear: nope
Vanessa: Hello!
AltheaRosea: was turned to xxxs
soap: what address?
Vanessa: i can talk about that
neawear: vanessa
stellaloella: i don't know admin posts have been edited. but our policy is to only remove info that poses a security risk or a legal isse
Vanessa: sure thing
neawear: :)
SarahSays: Vanessa! perfect for this subject
quirke: i've seen several perfectly civil comments removed from the Storque and no notice was given as to why
GreenMamba: I think that admin, despite wanting to be a part of the community, must be able to maintain a certain level of objectivity.
Vanessa: storque is our blog
stellaloella: GreenMamba , i totally agree
Vanessa: it is not like thef forums
neawear: rob where are u?
AltheaRosea: lady was reporting her phone out or something and posted her info on the forums for help
EmilyEJewelry: im gonna go and read the minutes. this is censory overload. i dont know how youre keeping track matt.
GreenMamba: Stella, for instance, and RobWhite, are excellent at examples.
SoCaliGirl: Yes, not taking things so personally is a must.
Vanessa: it's a place where outsiders from the community read and are introduced to our site
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castleman: i think a lot of the time etsy takes things personally
quirke: right, i can understand offensive or defamatory comments being removed, but i've seen comments that were constructive removed as well
stitchandtell: robwhite is
Vanessa: we don't remove many comments at all
castleman: if comments are alowed...they are allowed
stitchandtell: the man of the forums at night....
quirke: and the people were not notified as to why their comments were removed
EmilyEJewelry: im outie. SHALOM YA'LL!!
castleman: comments have been removed there are people with screen shots
RobWhite: Hey now, hey now.
xiane: bye emily e!
stitchandtell: :)
EmilyEJewelry: bye xiane!!
SarahsSky: i think its fine for etsy to delete comments from the storque if they want to.. like she said its not the forums.. and its like their blog and you can delete comments from your blog
cassowaryjewelry: thanks for your discussion. I will go and be sick.
SarahSays: awe
SarahSays: feel better
27things: i think outsiders deserve to read the opinions of a site's users
Duet: are you saying that like any other blog, the blogger(s) have the right to delete comments at will?
cassowaryjewelry: I will. stupid kids
quirke: i just think if a comment gets removed from the Storque, the person should be told why
stellaloella: the comments on the Storque are more like "letters to the editor" than an open forum discussion
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castleman: sure...but this is a business and it presents a biased view since the positive "every thing is great" comments are never removed
Vanessa: I do that and my storque team convos the person if it's removed
SoCaliGirl: I think that people should be able to take the good with the critical and make up their own minds. It cant be all lollipops and rainbows.
SarahsSky: why.. i dont think etsy should be a place where they have to answer for every single thing
AltheaRosea: I don't consuder it a blog and isn't it suppose to be a news site
soap: i agree with lauren
daniellexo: We're all human. I have learned my lesson, personally, about this. And we are all talking about how to not take things personally and the best way to deal with difficult situations.
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Vanessa: there were instances where other admin were removing comments before we discussed our procedure
GreenMamba: Agree with 27 and SoCali.
Vanessa: it won't happen again
quirke: ahhh ok Vanessa
Vanessa: so i apologize for that
quirke: thank you!
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SarahSays: So sorry about that
xiane: thank you, vanessa!
Vanessa: we had a meeting about that
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daniellexo: Respectful constructive criticism is easier to digest - but as Admin we have to take it all in.
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Vanessa: and we had to figure out how to deal with these things in a really professional way
stellaloella: i think something key to consider right now: some mistakes or misjudgments have been made in the PAST -- but we're here to try and set things right in the FUTURE. being able to learn from the past, but also let go of mistakes a little will be beneficial all around
GreenMamba: That is not saying that members should have carte blanche to be nasty - but not all criticism is negative, or unwarrananted.
SoCaliGirl: Danielle, I think the point with a lot of us who've done this thing a very long time is that the front line is expected to be better than just human. Its hard, I know, but it can be done.
soap: vanessa brings up a good point - you all need to have corporate policy for anything "removal" related imo
27things: i am a graphic designer. people criticize my work every 5 minutes. I understand that it takes time to grow a thick skin... but it is necessary.
quirke: i appreciate hearing that Vanessa
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soap: by "you" i mean etsy
gilbea: Anyways, i think it's great that you take in mind our opinions on all these topics :)
daniellexo: Yes I agree Socali
TheCraftyWino: what training does an Admin go thru? just curious
daniellexo: Thats why I say we need to learn from our mistakes and find the best way to communication from here on out.
TheCraftyWino: oops, forgot to put the /ask thing...sorry!
stellaloella: training depends on the position someone is hired for
SarahSays: we all do different things
starrydesigns: I think to avoid mistakes like that, it is good to hire the right person for the right job.
Vanessa: right now we have a internal policy here that you can't delete a comment on the storque unless you discuss it with me or alison
TeenAngster: Yes, indeedee!
stellaloella: but everyone is told the same thing in regards to communicating with the community or the public
Vanessa: it gets harder afterhours
Vanessa: honestly
abitabite: that drumming is freaking me out
GreenMamba: Oooo. Good question, crafty.
soap: lol
SarahSays: you should hear the pile drivers by my office :)
schOOLLOcker: does Etsy have an experienced HR position on staff?
sarawearsskirts: abitabite, welcome to the etsy labs, where there's construction all the time. :)
daniellexo: My toukas is rattling.
gilbea: that was MUSIC?
daniellexo: haha
stitchandtell: custom ear plugs for admins....
daniellexo: sorry
27things: back'er up!
daniellexo: too much info
Rokali: yes, we have Charles who heads up our HR
quirke: thank you for addressing that Vanessa
Vanessa: sure thing quirke
Rokali: and training right now lasts about 6 weeks
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SoCaliGirl: Do you have a Quality Assurance policy?
soap: interesting
marymorra: please, will there be minutes, i've been fighting with verizon and couldn't keep up!!!
Rokali: what would such a policy assure?
Vanessa: in general, if you have questions about storque, we are having a nother meeint g like this on Wed
daniellexo: Yes
stellaloella: we have a QA process for engineering, if that's what you mean
daniellexo: there will be minutes
marymorra: tks
abitabite: remember robwhites trainee badge hahah
RobWhite: ._.
TheCraftyWino: lol
daniellexo: hehe
quirke: ok thanks
RobWhite: =D
xiane: poor ol' etsytrainee
SoCaliGirl: Well, it would be a review of what constantly needs to be worked on.
daniellexo: best emoticon of the meeting
Duet: trial by fire, Rob?
TheCraftyWino: ah we heart you rob
stellaloella: i put robwhite throught he ringer on teaining. haha
SoCaliGirl: No.. A QA process for all aspects of people who deal with the public.
GreenMamba: Does the HR expert have a secret identity? Or are we allowed to know who it is?
RobWhite: It was great, really. =)
Rokali: we are constantly reviewing what needs ot be worked on
quirke: Matt i have a question
Rokali: QA is more about reviewing what *was* done
Rokali: and how it was done
RobWhite: Nobody knew me from Adam's housecat, so it was a great way to get acquainted.
winenutnyc: I'm charles
SoCaliGirl: Yes
quirke: what is Etsy's policy regarding admins commenting on articles about Etsy on 3rd-party websites?
sarawearsskirts: charles is in the etsy newcasts each month, giving the weather
SoCaliGirl: and how it can be tweaked for the future
castleman: i think there should be a policy
quirke