HeyMichelle: hi Rob!
Odannysgirl: Hi Rob
SnappyBibs: hello Rob
ragqueen: Hi Rob
TheCrayonBin: Hello Rob
Rokali: hardly anyone searches by description
electricbluebird: hiya rob
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KarmaRox: search by description please........I paid my 20 cents
eclipse: i do
Rokali: and we might be getting rid of that altogether because the index in the db is too big
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schOOLLOcker: because last time (before the change) it wasn't the default
eclipse: are minutes being taken?
Rokali: so no, I don't think that'll affect sales
ebbandflo: so stats show that no one searches by description - interesting!
beesquarefabrics: Poor Matt has gotten an earful about how the V&S sellers would like the seach to default to "all" - care to make any comments?
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Odannysgirl: I actually do search by description sometimes :)
astraled: Hello!
electricbluebird: send Matt home early. he deserves it. lol
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elegantdesigns1: Hello!
schOOLLOcker: and if *hardly anyone* searches that way, why is it still an option for handmade listings?
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schOOLLOcker: why bother?
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eclipse: Rob, that will cause those long ebay style titles if you get rid of description search
beesquarefabrics: And to reiterate, we love the new separation, we just want the default search to go back to All
Rokali: well, we want to create a special marketplace for supplies, and one for vintage
JanEleven: sales are down and viewings for supply and vintage sellers. Our word is enough. Please change the default search to all items
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Odannysgirl: Matt going to get a beer now
patternshop: My sales have already been effected
Rokali: we are not going to change the default search
curbsidetreasure: lol
SnappyBibs: bees, RobWhite did as well last night and both were awesome.
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Rokali: so we hear you, but asking for that isn't going to change anything at this point
beesquarefabrics: Why not
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SnappyBibs: xiane.
astraled: I like the default being handmade :)
quirke: well, i guess there's the answer
patternshop: unreal!!!
JanEleven: I see
ebbandflo: is there a search all setting on search right now too?
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enigmavintage: my views and sales are off by 90 percent
Rokali: we might do several smarter things
xiane: hey snappy!
KarmaRox: UGH
enigmavintage: might
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Rokali: like let an individual user set what they'd like searched by default
Rokali: and create special homepages for vintage & supplies
abitabite: wow rokali you just pissed off a lot of people you basically just said we will listen to you bitch but we dont care because this is what we want to do
JanEleven: the default search will not be changed and that's final. I guess we know where we stand, then
beesquarefabrics: Why is changing default search to ALL off the table? Have you done any usability studies on this?
KarmaRox: it needs to be simple for newbies
enigmavintage: but they don't even know that it's a choice...most people just search the default and assume it's the widest possible search
curbsidetreasure: i like the special homepage thing
patternshop: I agree Rob, once it defaults to ALL, then they narrow the search
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RJBeads: I like the idea of special homepages!
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enigmavintage: at least mention somewhere above the fold on the front page that vintage is here and that it can be searched
Rokali: ok, it's noon
Rokali: topic is being changed
theartistscloset: tell us more
vintageprints: true enigma
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SnappyBibs: ok
abitabite: what a joke
dancingcircle: are we using the ask a question format?
Rokali: to your Etsy shop & having "employees"
electricbluebird: will V&S pay more for having these features? (I am a vintage seller as well)
urns: Hello!
KarmaRox: definitely a joke.........I'm outta here
Rokali: no more q's about V&S supplies
beesquarefabrics: I'm sorry.
Rokali: we can get back to that perhaps later today
astridanaturals: how much have I missed? when did this start?
enigmavintage: perhaps
JanEleven: sigh
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ebbandflo: topic just started astrid
Rokali: so, I'd like to leave the floor open and see how that goes
astridanaturals: ok
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Rokali: but first please let me give a brief intro
patternshop: no employees, cause there are no more sales, UNREAL!!! and you wonder why we are upset
eclipse: are minutes on?
HeyMichelle: Hi you guys...can we talk about the V/S later? We will take a look at the stats, as well we will try to look at alternatives that will benefit all...
Rokali: of what I understand the issue to be
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pinkee: who can have employees if we aren't selling?
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Rokali: so first, "employee" is a legal word
ArtfulMosaicSupplies: I'm with you pinkee.
Rokali: it means you have a business entity
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Rokali: and the person who is helping you is on the books as an employee
loganshop: Hello! did i completely miss the V and S chat? : (
Rokali: which means witholding taxes, geting workers comp, disability etc
SnappyBibs: Yes
curbsidetreasure: yes you did logan
Rokali: so, I imagine most people here don't mean "employee" in that sense
Rokali: but instead mean
ebbandflo: does this rule out contracting then where the extra hand is essentially self employed
loganshop: how did that happen? was it annonced?
quirke: does that mean that non-legal help will be treated differently?
Rokali: "Can I have someone help me with my business"
quirke: by etsy, i mean
elegantdesigns1: I haven't been a seller long but I have showcased and done what I could and I have 't sold one thing. I don't need emplyees!
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eclipse: i think they also include ind contractors and temps
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Rokali: haha, having help that's not an employee isn't illegal
Rokali: I'm just saying, the issue at hand is not
ebbandflo: thanks eclipse
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abitabite: thats exactly what people mean by employee Rokali . They dont want to screw thier worker over
Rokali: "can I have an employee?"
abitabite: why are you assuming otherwise
Rokali: but
curbsidetreasure: maybe you dont need employees but some other sellers are saying they need one
Rokali: "Can I have a business partner, helper, intern" etc.
babastudioPrague: That's helpful Rob. Yes, most people here in the arts and crafts prefer to work on a self-employed basis (it's very traditional here )
quirke: so is this discussion about having help, or having a employee?
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Rokali: this discussion is about an Etsy business
ebbandflo: ?about partitioning or delegating work
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Rokali: being run by more than one person
Rokali: however that might happen
quirke: ok, gotcha
ButterflyChic: HA if I hired help I'd hire someone to clean so I could spend more time crafting!! LOL
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Rokali: because it can happen in a number of ways
ebbandflo: being run by implies paternership
FearlessFibers: Actually, Rob, I think the question is most definitely both. True employees, temp help, independent contractor , etc
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ebbandflo: partnership!
Rokali: again, partnership is a legal word
eclipse: run byor items produced by more than one person
crochetbouquet: do sellers having employees matter from etsy's position?
Rokali: it's a type of business entity
babastudioPrague: Yes, Fearless, I agree.
marymorra: can the people on the left move over, i can't see the writing? tks
eclipse: help with production is how i define it
Rokali: an LLC is not a partnership, in most cases
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Rokali: nor is a C corp
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ebbandflo: in a nutshell, how many hands can be used in preparing what we sell?
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quirke: i think there is a difference between "run by" more than one person, and the shop owner having help
Rokali: I'll get to what an LLC is in a minute
SnappyBibs: Limited Liability Company
curbsidetreasure: limited liability
babastudioPrague: Thanks!
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Rokali: ok I'll turn off chat so I can make my intro :)
SnappyBibs: ok
astridanaturals: I may have missed this but why is this relevent to the chat now?
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Rokali: okee, welcome everyone
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Rokali: this is a chat about running an Etsy business with more than one person
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Rokali: the Vintage & Supplies chat was the previous hour
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Rokali: we'll have another chat about that next week
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Rokali: to clear up what this chat is about, up front
Rokali: it's not specifically about having an employee
Rokali: it's about more than one person running an Etsy shop
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Rokali: and that more-than-one can be
Rokali: an employee, a contractor
Rokali: an intern
Rokali: etc.
Rokali: a friend
Rokali: normally it's a good idea to make this arrange more formal
Rokali: and have some kind of contract
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Rokali: I'll get to the paperwork side in a minute
Rokali: first, people here are asking if it's ok to run an Etsy shop with more than one person
Rokali: and the answer is Yes, certainly
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Rokali: but there will be some rules & guidelines we'll work together to figure out
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Rokali: running a business solo is very, very difficult
Rokali: and in my mind puts a hamper on how helpful and meaningful the business can be
Rokali: there are so many different tasks involved in running an Etsy shop
Rokali: designing stuff
Rokali: finding supplies
Rokali: production
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Rokali: mailing stuff
Rokali: customer support
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Rokali: marketing
Rokali: accounting, bookkeeping
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Rokali: and trying to do all that on your own & stay sane
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Rokali: is very hard
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Rokali: I've been working with a group of 6 Etsy sellers here in Brooklyn
Rokali: learning what they need to make their business grow
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Rokali: stay sane
Rokali: have enough money for food, to support a family
Rokali: and there's a lot to it
Rokali: and there's a lot people don't know about, or do
Do you pay taxes on all your items sold?
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Rokali: I read an article that the IRS estimates there's something like $3 billion inunpaid taxes from item sales on eBay
Rokali: ok, one more poll
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24 yay, 12 nay, 23 abstain
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Is your Etsy business a legal entity on its own? Like an LLC, or C Corp?
Rokali: if you don't know the answer, the answer is probably No :)
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Rokali: whenever you have a business in the US, the government cares about one thing above everything: Paing taxes
Rokali: and how you pay taxes, and how much you pay, is based on what your business is
Rokali: and what the legal entity is
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24 yay, 19 nay, 19 abstain
Rokali: ok, so that's a bt of background
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Rokali: what I'm hoping to show is
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Rokali: there's a lot more to running a business than production
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Rokali: and with everything there is to do, in my mind it's best to get some help from talented people
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Rokali: Etsy Inc. is like this
Rokali: it currently takes 60 people to make Etsy tick
Rokali: and with any less than that, it'd be quite difficult
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Rokali: the biggest goal for most Etsy selelrs I know
Rokali: is to make a living
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Rokali: but that means many things
Rokali: and is a very diff. amount of $ for diff. people
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Rokali: so we need to figure out what people here want
Rokali: need
Rokali: and are comfortable with
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Rokali: it can also help to point out things we dislike
Rokali: e.g. offshore production
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Rokali: but in my mind, the host beneficial Etsy business is one that supports a small handful of people running it, while upholding certain values
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Rokali: and in this way the business is also more durable
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Rokali: if one person gets sick, or moves, of whatever
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Rokali: and the business is successful
Rokali: it can carry on, continuing to help the community
Rokali: ok, so now onto something more practical
Rokali: and I'll open up the discussion
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Rokali: the basic question is, if I'm running an Etsy shop, can I have people helping me to run it?
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Rokali: first, I'll just take a poll
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Should an Etsy business be able to be more than 1 person?
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Rokali: so this question *does* need to be qaulified
Rokali: we all have beliefs and values we want to uphold as we grow our business
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59 yay, 2 nay, 17 abstain
Rokali: and we'll need some poclies around this
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Rokali: ok, I'l turn on general chat now, please also use the Q&A feature
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KEcookies: Thanks Rokali. Very informative
ButterflyChic: I would love to pay someone to do the boring business end so I could have more time to create. I wouldn't want someone else doing creating or customer service though, in my shop....
jorgensenstudio: the qualifyiers are the important part
alorinna: I don't want to see retail jewelry stores like in the mall flood this place.
Rokali: right
Rokali: we don't want bg retail stores in here either
bittercherryemporium: why should it matter how many people are working for one store, as long as the items are handmade?
curbsidetreasure: yeah no loopholes in this policy
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BethMillner: argreed alorinna
babastudioPrague: Isn't the point that we want SMALL, Indie businesses here, however exactly they are run?
Rokali: there's a matter of scale
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abitabite: many people do want an employee in regards to the legal sense of the word
Rokali: you can't have 1000 people working for a business
Rokali: and know everyone
jorgensenstudio: one artists hands on work, help packing shipping no problem
twigsandheather: I woory about the jewelry too. I cast and that will open the doors to mass produced items
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abitabite: they want to be fair to thier person
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HeyMichelle: well, on # of people- even things in factories are made by a person...is 100 people "handmade"?
PsycoHatress: well i dotn want to see sweat shop items from china making theri way on here
dennisanderson: Hello!
sherrytruitt: So, if you are a designer, could you have someone finish the work ,say a student who ships and polishes?
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ButterflyChic: Well kids making clothes in a sweat shop in some small country around the world is handmade....that's why
Rokali: we won't allow mass-produced items to bury the handmade items
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Rokali: or those businesses to bury our businesses
Rokali: that's why we started Etsy
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bittercherryemporium: what if etsy in itself were upheld to the same rules, only ONE person running the whole of etsy, it would be imposible.
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Rokali: so, here's a basic rule
Rokali: let me know if you'd agree to this
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Decadence2artbar: I just ask for disclosure to be mandatory so that buyers can make a decision on whether they want to support an individual or a small/large business entity...
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jorgensenstudio: how do you differentiate what is mass produced, where does the line come in?
Rokali: 1. You have to know & disclose the identity of everyone who works in an Etsy shop
ButterflyChic: agreed Decadence2artbar
twigsandheather: how are you going to be able to tell the difference? They are already here in jewelry.
holly: If I didn't have help every once in a while, I wouldn't be able to ship as fast. It would take me over a week to ship items.
piperewan: and how much should etsy decide how i run my business
Rokali: that rule knocks out most large companies
KEcookies: agreed
Rokali: who have so many faceless, nameless employees
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abitabite: heres my thing - you can outsource a design to a factory with 100 people to screen print our design, but you cannot hire one person to do it in your own studio.
CatherineMarissa: I don't think Etsy is saying how to run your business, but whether or not the business is a fit for this site
babastudioPrague: Yes, ata, I think that's been really confusing
Rokali: abitabite -- why can't you have 1 person help you?
ButterflyChic: does it Rokali? If they hire 50 people and interview them all they "know" them....
abitabite: as an employee
jorgensenstudio: yes Catherine i agree
dancingcircle: if etsy want seller to be succesfull - we need help in our shops, right?
ebbandflo: in large companies the empoyees are not faceless to payroll or HR - there will be a record of them. how intimately must you know your employees for etsy to be OK?
Rokali: right but they don't say who those people are
abitabite: its your rule Rokali you tell me
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twigsandheather: people are going to take advantage of a rules
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Rokali: I mean facess to the *consumer*
bittercherryemporium: bottom line, how is etsy ever going to know that a shop is being truthful, a shop could have 1000 employees and you would never know
HeyMichelle: interesting, abitabite...but you *can* hire someone, a rob said
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jorgensenstudio: so as long as you list all 100 it is ok?
ButterflyChic: But they could..people are greedy....LOL
Rokali: again, that's not the only rule here
Rokali: it's going to take a set of rules
jorgensenstudio: yup
ebbandflo: so if you can name all 1000 employees to the consumer then they are not faceless?
sherrytruitt: up until today, you couldn't have an employee
Rokali: knowing & disclosing the identity of everyone who works in an Etsy shop
Rokali: would be rule 1
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bittercherryemporium: when you say employee, does that mean they have to be paid to be coinsidered a real employee?
CatherineMarissa: Would that disclosure be in the profile?
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abitabite: Rokali okay straight up yes or no, are we allowed employees
Rokali: Yes
Rokali: I've said that several times now
Rokali: also
Rokali: "empoyee"
twigsandheather: jewelry designers hire companies to cast mass produced products and then just sign their names to them. I see it here already.
astridanaturals: does it matter how many?
eclipse: sherry i think you were allowed emplyees that did packaging and shipping, just not production
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Rokali: an Employee isn't what you want
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abitabite: in the legal sense of the term
babastudioPrague: I honestly think that some sensible set of rules like this would let Etsy focus on the real things that are not wanted here - the big resellers etc
Rokali: in my guess
sherrytruitt: thank you thank you, I'm hiring an art student assistant, thank you
Rokali: having an employee, in the legal sense
dennisanderson: last christmas my mother in law helped with packging orders for a few hours a day. When the busy season comes again, do I need to disclose that or not?
ButterflyChic: Maybe alimit on the # of people allowed to be in on one shop?
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Rokali: requires a lot of paperwork & insurance
babastudioPrague: In other words, this sounds good to me!
bittercherryemporium: ok, hang on everyone, can we all stop for a min and hear all the rules?
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momentintime: Hello!
Rokali: you probably mean a helper, contractor etc.
SecretLentil: would people have to divulge employees vs. partners?
abitabite: if i hired someone (which i am not going to) an employee would be exactly what i want
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vital: so one would have to have list every person by name in the shop profile?
KEcookies: etsy should be a vehicle to start a business if it take off and you open a public shop you should thank etsy whole heartedly and close your shop
twigsandheather: Handmade by YOU. no actual production work or help.
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jorgensenstudio: so you have to pay payrol taxes to be considered an employee
Rokali: most times as a small business when you hire someone, they are a contractor for an inital period
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sherrytruitt: actually, twig, they could help
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Rokali: right, employee is a legal word
ebbandflo: so if it's just casual help then anything goes?
eclipse: I think peope should be allowed to have production help, but limied to maybe one or two people
ButterflyChic: Then can we change the rom title?
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Rokali: well, we're here to explore various rules
babastudioPrague: But KE, why would you close your shop here if it takes off? Surely it's brilliant that some people here are making a living?
jorgensenstudio: so withholding, fica, unemploymeny ins
dancingcircle: success on etsy shouldn't mean you have to leave
abitabite: so if we are allowed to have employees why is there such a fuss about it in the forums, why are people allowed to attack sellers for wanting one?
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Rokali: right
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ebbandflo: how about international employment law?
bittercherryemporium: could we hear all the rules first?
twigsandheather: You say 2 but the people who will take advantage of this may have 40.
KEcookies: because etsy is hand made and it will no longer be so
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Rokali: the biggest goal is for all our Etsy businesses to present a viable alternative to the megacorps
eclipse: it doesnt do etsy any good if sellers have to leave etsy just when they start getting successful
ButterflyChic: I agree there is a HUGE diff between employee and a helper or ind contractor
Rokali: and for that to happen there's an economy of scale
babastudioPrague: Yes, exactly - no megacorps!
stellaloella: abitabite, we're going through a change in the policies right now. the old vs the new -- there are some key differences
Rokali: I don't have the rules down
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Rokali: that's why we're here
sherrytruitt: exactly ,eclipse. we'd like to stay with a little help
Rokali: to explore possible rules
twigsandheather: How will etsy possibly be able to check these things?
ButterflyChic: very good paoint eclipse
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Rokali: if you're here expecting some set of rules to be disclosed
Rokali: like Moses coming down from a mountain
dennisanderson: i agree dancingcircle we are all here to succeed, but if someone got so big that they have a factory, theyre product listings and prices would bury the other handmade artisits
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HeyMichelle: I'm thinking when people are saying "employees" they are not so much talking about legal defs but the simple "can I have someone who I am paying doing some of my work for my shop"? Am I correct?
Rokali: that's not what this chat is for
babastudioPrague: But KE, how is a studio of say, six people working together "not handmade"?
abitabite: stellaloella thats the problem, Rokali just said we were allowed, now you say not yet. Facts need to be straight.
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bittercherryemporium: well, unless you have a way of enforcing said rules, and being 110% sure that people are not breaking the rules, having a set of rules doesnt mean anything. There could be 100 shops here with 100+ employees. How do you know?
abitabite: HeyMichelle i am talking legal term employee
HeyMichelle: ah, ok, good to know abita
sherrytruitt: i'm, confused again. we were just told it is allowed
dancingcircle: does etsy want to cap success at a certain level?
CatherineMarissa: Let's let Rokali pose a question or something instead of all chiming in
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Rokali: ok I'm going to turn off chat for a second
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Rokali: so, we're here to explore what rules we could set
Rokali: that would both allow Etsy businesses to be more than one person
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Rokali: but keep the big companies out
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Rokali: so, let's spend the next half hour talking about rules these could possibly be
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Rokali: it's going to take a set of them
Rokali: no one rule will solve this complex issue
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Rokali: so, please think about what rules you'd like to see
Rokali: mine is: I want to know the identity of everyone who's invovled
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Rokali: as a buyer, I want visibility into all the people who make the business work
Rokali: so, what are you ideas for rules?
PsycoHatress: well , you could say that the employer must produce a certain percentage of the items for sale.
astridanaturals: the business should not publically traded, and not a franchise, to start
FearlessFibers: (1) 100% of design work done by seller. (2) XX% of "handmaking" done by sellers. (3) Full disclosure of employees, contractors, etc in Profile. (4) All work by employees/contractors done in same physical location and under direct supervision of seller. (5) Seller complies wi/llocal labor law
abitabite: you want to know who someones accountant is?
SecretLentil: maybe we could have a handful of set levels like individual, ind. w/help, collective, etc. with guidelines for each?
CatherineMarissa: I would like to know what "role" the artist has in the business
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twigsandheather: No production help
babastudioPrague: I think disclosure of the size is important.
ebbandflo: you could ask what processes are subcontracted out
RJBeads: I think the designer/maker/what-have-you needs to still be hands-on in some aspect at the least
abitabite: i think percentages are unreasonable
ButterflyChic: Disclosure/identity, limit the number of "helpers" or number of people aloowed to open shop together
babastudioPrague: I mean, there IS a big difference between 6 people in a studio and 60!
dancingcircle: I wouldn't want to disclose my lawyer and accountant
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twigsandheather: some aspects is too vague
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Decadence2artbar: I would like to know what aspect of the business the employee/helper is doing: ie, shipping, prepping canvases etc
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anatomyofaskirt: how about, any employees doing production work must be housed in same city/area where the business resides?
RJBeads: And that it should be made locally to them (ie. no exporting your designs to have them mass-produced in a factory)
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ButterflyChic: agreed Decadence2artbar
SecretLentil: i personally want to know about power dynamics - partner vs. hierarchy.
ebbandflo: yes, i'd rather leave the id's of the non-crafting helpers out of my profile
warhorse: cant't...read...that.. fast
abitabite: babastudioPrague it depends on what is being made
babastudioPrague: Oh dancing - yes, right, I think lawyer, accountant etc should not be included.
bittercherryemporium: why does it matter how many employees you have as long as everything is handmade? Big companies mass produce. Why would etsy stop their biggest sellers from bringing in more money to etsy? (im not a big seller) even if that employer just cut out things, or did grunt work?
astridanaturals: I'm not sure I'd want to disclose all employees
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Rokali: has anyone here seen the documentary Manufactured Landscapes?
dennisanderson: Rokali if my wife helps, but isnt an "employee" or if i have help with packaging orders during the holiday rush, am I obligated to disclose that.... I am by far very far from manufacturing stage
babastudioPrague: ata - yes, that's true. I mean, I am not trying to suggest hard and fast numbers. Just saying that the number of people working on things should be disclosed.
Rokali: almost everything that's mass-produced in China IS handmade
warhorse: I wouldn't want to buy something that was done on an assembly line type process - top seller or not
ArtfulMosaicSupplies: How would Etsy enforce these rules?
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Decadence2artbar: I think bringing lawyers and accountants into it is silly, I had both when I wasnt a business owner...
Rokali: by thousands of people
Rokali: who look miserable
bittercherryemporium: Pls explain to me what knowing the employees of a shop does? what purpose does listing thier names serve?
CatherineMarissa: Exactly Rokali!
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abitabite: i dont think etsy has the right to expect people to enter into a partnership, because that means that the originals persons concepts become owned by both partner. I am not partnering with someone i hired to cut predrawn shapes out of felt
anatomyofaskirt: I've seen it, Rokali. most people don't realize that most everything we buy that is mass-produced is still handmade
warhorse: I prolly look pretty miserable when I am making my stuff.. but it's my concentration face
ButterflyChic: bittercherryemporium it makes it personal which is what etsy is about
Rokali: knowing identity makes everything more meaningful
SnappyBibs: I want the disclosure because I want to be a consumer as well and know if I am buying from someone that has more than say more that 5 employees that my funds are supporting fair employment practices. This is one of the endearing things to me about Etsy.
ebbandflo: in a lot of countries handmade is the norm and as far as mass production goes, its the way it is accomplished
sherrytruitt: would 3rd part vendore such as printers allow need to be disclosed
CatherineMarissa: I don't need names, but I'd like to know if you have a team of 10 that are sawing, polishing, etc.
twigsandheather: Do you ever see at a craft show someone with their 10 employees behind them?
Rokali: and it requires, I think, a type of scale
babastudioPrague: I think just disclosing numbers would be a good start.
Rokali: that is much healtheir
InspirationByFlorna: wow this chat is cramped today
piperewan: not all businesses are the same. and just how nitpicky would people be about what a helper does? will it include me having to disclose trade secrets?
stellaloella: one of the key principles of Etsy is to connect the maker with the buyer -- knowing HWO made an item is important
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PopulationOne: I agree that the help should be local. I don't think we need to list names of the helpers but knowing who is responsible for what would be good
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RJBeads: I don't need to know your employye names, but a short statement like: I have help with packaging/shipping, etc. would be nice.
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Rokali: ok
BethMillner: i can't even read it, is there a pause button?
CatherineMarissa: I wish twigs.
trinlayk: Didn't most of us come to etsy so we could have some independence... though if I get yarn from a friend who spins and make something , (and pay her for the yarn) and then make something out of it, does my friend then become an employee?
warhorse: chat needs a scrolly
Rokali: Michelle wrote some q's in the Sotrque article announcing this chatt
LynneReady: I'm afraid that entering into dangerous territory - more rules for people to break, distrust, and chaos. Sometimes an organization just needs to evolve and become what it is.
dancingcircle: I also think "helpers" would change over time
Rokali: and we'll get to those q's now
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RJBeads: tinrlayk - not, she'd be your supplier
Rokali: Michelle can you please take over that part?
Rokali: as for all the ideas just stated above
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HeyMichelle: sure!
Rokali: we'll make lists & follow up with a Storque article
ArtfulMosaicSupplies: How would Etsy enforce these rules?
ButterflyChic: trinlayk no lilke if I buy supplies at Michaels it doesn't mean Michaels is my employee
Rokali: we're going to switch to Q&A format
HeyMichelle: ok, #1
Rokali: so everyone who has questions
HeyMichelle: For those selling handmade goods: Are employees necessary for a seller to "make a living making things"? Are the items still "handmade"?
dancingcircle: good
Rokali: you type /ask My Question HEre
trinlayk: ok... and I can still get my daughter to take stuff to the post office for me when I'm sick. ( I feed her)
babastudioPrague: Anyway, it all sounds like it's a good change Rokali. Thanks!
JustAnotherDay: I don't think people's names need to be disclosed but it would be ince to know if others are helping out. There are so many sellers on here who have had their own business for years and years and sometimes it is hard to believe that they are the only creator/production person.
HeyMichelle: ok, wait we answered that one
HeyMichelle: #2
warhorse: we did?
bittercherryemporium: I dont need helpers, hell, I have only ever sold 2 things, but I feel sorry for sucessful shops that burn out because its just too much to handle by themselves. I say kudos to them for being so sucessful, and they may need a little help cutting patterns, packiaging, labelling etc
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QuiltSALAD: Hello! To keep it simple and understandable, Perhaps, the rule should be a two employee limit. Meaning the main business owner and two helpers, for a total of 3 people period.
HeyMichelle: I think so...people seemed to say yes
HeyMichelle: Does the number of employees that a business has impact whether the shop belongs on Etsy? If so, how many is too many?
HeyMichelle: let's do that one
warhorse: I think it depends on what you make
twigsandheather: I think it would be impossible to enforce it. It seems like it should be all or nothing if etsy wants to stick to it's handmade pledge and be taken seriously.
CatherineMarissa: Employees to package, to list...that's fine with me. To create? Nope
ebbandflo: it does depend on wht you make
babastudioPrague: I think the awkward thing is that like warhorse says, it depends what you make.
RJBeads: Yes. # depends on the product made though.
vital: I don't like the idea of giving names, but the number of people and roles would be nice.
ButterflyChic: I think 3 is a low number becasue you have to consider collabratives too
bittercherryemporium: employees to cut out patterns?
jorgensenstudio: yes employees to package and mail, not fabricate or create
ebbandflo: i don't think it is possible to assign a number
Rokali: I dont think you can set a concrete # like that
babastudioPrague: For example, we are essentially about printed images, and Alex and I (partner in BOTH senses :) ) can do quite a lot of prints in a day. But for other crafts it's different.
HeyMichelle: ok, interesting
sherrytruitt: pwoplw who sell prints already have someone woh "makes" their item
warhorse: right baba
curbsidetreasure: yup same here baba
abitabite: i agree with ebbandflo depends on what you make
curbsidetreasure: except i have to outsource my prints
HeyMichelle: good points...ok, for what types of things?
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ButterflyChic: if you dont' set a numbetr what stops a business with 50 employees from coming in here...
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anatomyofaskirt: how is there any difference between me hiring someone to help me make my bags, and me buying a finished tote to screenprint on- there is labour inherent in the tote, that by purchasing, I am paying someone to make. So I should be allowed to have people in productionwith me.
ebbandflo: and what you make also determines how fast or frequently you list new items too
Decadence2artbar: I think there should be a limit to the number of employees..3-5?
vital: I don't think it is reasonable to put numbers on the amount of help someone needs to be a viable business. Everyone makes different things and their needs are different.
bittercherryemporium: i agree anatomy!
trinlayk: or a factory with a 100 girls hand crafting something...
anatomyofaskirt: exactly, vital
Rokali: right but there could be a max #
moxiedesigns: but the definition of "viable" is really relative
warhorse: anatomy - the difference is that screen printers aren't claiming to make the bag
Rokali: though people could find ways around that
jorgensenstudio: there should be concrete rules that apply to different media set up before hand because each media has different needs and processes
Rokali: create a side business or something
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Rokali: like how Gap has Banana Republic or whatever
curbsidetreasure: yeah
abitabite: like daisycakes has said she can make 60 lip balms in an hour - if she had 10 people working that is 600 lip balms... where as making a shoe might take an hour for an extra helper to just cut out the leather
babastudioPrague: I think that whatever you do Rob, some people will get around it.
warhorse: if only I could afford either :P
ButterflyChic: people will find a way around any rule any where, espically if it means they can make money...
twigsandheather: any # opens the door for people to take advantage of with no way to check
curbsidetreasure: they 'didnt' know that they were supporting child labor
SnappyBibs: I would like some sort of cap.
ebbandflo: for smaller businesses trying to stay in profit all we want to know is what and how much help can we have for the grunt work at busy times
babastudioPrague: But at least clear rules would help.
curbsidetreasure: it was a middleman thing
is the # of employees relevant or determining whether the shop belongs on Etsy?
Decadence2artbar: honestly, there will always be people trying to get around the rules but if you dont have rules or criteria to begin with, how do you know when to question them?
HeyMichelle: and by "or" I mean "for"
HeyMichelle: sorry
warhorse: hmm
jorgensenstudio: yes but each media has its own grunt work, that is abiguous
warhorse: I might change my answer
dennisanderson: that question has ALOT of circumstances tho
moxiedesigns: I think the idea of, as abitabite mentions, "grunt work," should be defined
PsycoHatress: maybe if there was a way to "apply" to etsy for each employee you wanted to add... and esty reviewed each request and made a decision
warhorse: I wanna vote not
vital: i don't think number, but roles are relevant.
RJBeads: what about putting a cap on the creative employees? not the shipping/bookeeping - office work side of things?
babastudioPrague: AAARRGHHH _ sorry, I HATE that word "grunt" I hate that.
warhorse: because it doesn't really matter how MANY employees, but how they are USED
girlsavage: so, my husband drpping off packages at the post office for me and my dog bringing the mail up from the bottom of the stairs, in return I remember to feed them. That's ok?
ButterflyChic: right Decadence2artbar I'm not saying we should set rules, I'm just saying it will be hard to enforce these rules being it is internet...
HeyMichelle: ok, good, let's talk about roles in a second...
abitabite: 3 employees to help back cookies would yeild 1000 cookies in an hour but 3 employees helping making a wedding cake could yeild one tiere being decorated
40 yay, 22 nay, 19 abstain
ebbandflo: if i could design my work, can i then hand it on to someone to make completely the finished item?
dancingcircle: do you want each and every seller to make everything from scratch alone?
babastudioPrague: I mean, I don't want to think of anyone in our studio as a "grunt" Sorry rant over.
vital: exactly, warhorse!
HeyMichelle: for those who think the # is important, what do you think should be the max amount?
abitabite: the number of people is relevent to how time consuming the work is
bittercherryemporium: unless people on etsy are 100 % truthful, it doesnt matter what rules you put in place, they will ignore them, and unless you have 110% proof they are breaking the rules, what can be done? how do you know there are not shops with employees now?
HeyMichelle: interesting abitabite...
Rokali: I think it's great if you get help from your husband, dog, or other fmaily, I'd just like to know about it
twigsandheather: I want to see etsy sellers make their own products.
ButterflyChic: I think 6 sounds like a good number
girlsavage: cool
Rokali: any successful artisan
CatherineMarissa: ditto twigs
Rokali: historically
warhorse: you can never count on the masses to be 100% truthful - there are always bad apples
PopulationOne: I think the max should be around 10 people
Rokali: has a small workshop
dancingcircle: the number of people could be a function of items produced
PearsonMaron: 1 or 2 with disclosure about what they do
Rokali: a guild
Decadence2artbar: there are shops with employees now
ButterflyChic: I don't know why 6 instead of 5 LOL
Rokali: people they teach
ebbandflo: of course i get helpfrom m husband - he provides childcare. do i have to disclose that now?
Rokali: who help them with production
should there be diferent rules for different types of crafts regarding employee #s?
Rokali: so there's a LONG history around this issue
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bittercherryemporium: i know of 1 VERY successful etsy store that employees people
Karmacrochet: what about creating some sort of approval process/application?
dancingcircle: it could never be a certain number
abitabite: Rokali are we supposed to disclose family members helping... what about my husband matainins my sewing macine, is that meant to be in my profile?
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HeyMichelle: and that should read "regarding employee #s"
CatherineMarissa: I was thinking along the same line as Karma
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moxiedesigns: I would love to see a profile page that enabled each person in a collective to write up a little about what they do, what their role is in the business, etc. -- perhaps that would help to keep it personal?
babastudioPrague: Oh goodness. I think different rules for different types of design is a really good idea - but very hard to do!
twigsandheather: As a caster, 6 people in a casting studio could mass produce milloins of products for 1 person.
jorgensenstudio: no no no not a guild, we are supposed to facilitate buying direct from an artist
KEcookies: What about disclosing paid persons only
Rokali: creating jobs = good for the community
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warhorse: if you do different rules you are going to have people arguing over the unfairness of being able to only have X amount of workers when another craft is allowed to have Y
ButterflyChic: I think people are not understanding
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KEcookies: Not your dog or husband
dennisanderson: I produce everything I offer, its just packaging and shipping on my end where I get the help with in busy times
PsycoHatress: well if # of employees is determined on a shop to shop basis then that woudl take care of thediffuculty of work issue
ButterflyChic: I don't think disclosing who fixes you sewing machine is important
Rokali: moxie -- great idea
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RJBeads: I like that KEcookies. My Mr. is my mailman, not worth mentioning in my profile, apreciative though I am.
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CharmingDarling: I get that you want to know about husband & dog helping, but can Etsy really respond to these inquiries from 100's or 1000's of sellers?
jorgensenstudio: not how many but what they are allowed to do in the process
dancingcircle: disclosing each and every helper would turn into an invasion of privacy
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ButterflyChic: If you took it to you local sewing machine shop would you list them in your profile?
Rokali: the person who fixes your sewing machine is more peripheral
Decadence2artbar: so true warhorse, like the arguments about suppliers having warehouses of stuff already made
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Rokali: I'd want to know people who help you on a more daily basis
ebbandflo: who decides who is peripheral?
Rokali: take a pic of the USPS guy!
ButterflyChic: If you buy supplies from Micahels you don't need to list that
curbsidetreasure: lol
Rokali: (JK)
moxiedesigns: hehehe
ebbandflo: my hsband helps me on a daily basis
HeyMichelle: well, it looks like people are talking about this one:
SecretLentil: about the poll: i'm in clothing with people who outsource silkscreening. there's no way my handmade clothes will have the same parameters.
HeyMichelle: Is *what* potential employees do for the shop relevant?
jorgensenstudio: yes, like do they do a skilled job, or an unskilled job
curbsidetreasure: more like the ups guys
curbsidetreasure: ;)
SnappyBibs: lol Anthony would love to pose
warhorse: peripheral would be people who do not have a direct hand in the making of your product
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Rokali: it'd be good to list where you get your supplies from
moxiedesigns: yes, completely
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ebbandflo: ppardon re supplies????
RJBeads: YES! What they do is so relevant.
moxiedesigns: i don't think i would ever want to disclose my supply sources
babastudioPrague: Hehe. Can I photograph our post-office ladies. They are great and utterly essential to us!
PopulationOne: yes, I definitely think it's relevant
astridanaturals: no I dont want to disclose suppliers
warhorse: although I would consider your hubby dropping packages off perefrial(sp)
vital: I think creating jobs for other like minded people would be AWESOME!
BethMillner: heymichelle-yes
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QuiltSALAD: But remember that Etsy is suppose to be a HANDMADE site, catering to the little grandma working in her living room, or to an individual. I feel that 3 people is enough. If someone needs more people, then they are perhaps, over qualified to sell on Etsy. Isn't Etsy for the SMALL HOMEMADE designers ?
CatherineMarissa: What they do is absolutely relevant
marymorra: there are shops that have "outgrown" etsy and need to move on to bigger
jorgensenstudio: no not listing where my supplies come from then that opens the door for people to copy
HeyMichelle: so, what type of work do you think is ok vs. not ok?
CharmingDarling: Disclose suppliers? I don't think that's reasonable.
nutnutgoods: some of that are trade secrets though - listing supply resources
Decadence2artbar: no way on disclosing suppliers.....nope, aint going to do it!
sherrytruitt: yes, are they helping with production or shipping, for example?
bittercherryemporium: do i nered to liost the jo-annes fabric lady who cut my material? stupid question, yes, but where do you draw the line?
sococreative: no one should be listing where they got their supplies from...
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curbsidetreasure: no thanks on disclosing
squirrelmomma: I think we need to think about what people expect when they see "handmade"...
LynneReady: i don't understand why it's so important to know so many details about seller's shops
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CatherineMarissa: What does a supplier have to do with employees?
curbsidetreasure: id have to say i got my paper on the street lol
stellaloella: i can understand a seller not wanting to disclose a supplier, but as a buyer - i'd love to know so i can make more informed purchases. i might not want to trickle-down support wal-mart, for example
babastudioPrague: No, Etsy is about handmade, not necessarily homemade. I think. Is that right?
PsycoHatress: how did we get onto suppliers?
dennisanderson: how about cutting listing fees for power sellers?
trinlayk: I can't even figure out how I'd need employees yet... everything I do is so specifically part of making the individual item.
jorgensenstudio: disclose to admin, no problem, diclose to the public no no no
dancingcircle: are handmade and homemade different?
Odannysgirl: I won't list where I get all my supplies from
Rokali: if I sell knitwear, and I buy yarn from a local farm, I'd certainly disclose that
terrygraziano: I don't want to disclose my suppliers - for someone who uses fabric, that's part of what makes my products special.
Rokali: and as a buyer
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ebbandflo: so no supplies from walmart if you are truly handmade?
SnappyBibs: Rokali, I would still like that the shop owner deals with the customer first hand.
Rokali: I'd prefer to buy from such a place
trinlayk: I can't make things fast enough to need a shipping clerk.
CreativeArtandSoul: I think folks are getting off track about husbands going to the post office and kids heping cut paper and such...I think the real issue is how many people are actually creating , assembling, sewing, painting, and designing the Art, Jewelry, etc. .. not who packages or who goes to the post office.
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bittercherryemporium: lyneeready, i agree, what is the big deal here? surely etsy can tell whats handmade by a small cottage industry and whatsnot
stellaloella: ebbandflo, i didn't say that. i said a buyer might want to make that choice.
CatherineMarissa: Why is it important? Because people like me feel cheated when they meet an artist at a show and pay $200 for her bracelet only to realize that she doesn't make any of her jewelry - a student does.
astridanaturals: I dont want to disclose supplies to anyone!
Rokali: Snappy -- yes, until the # of customers is so large as to require full-time work on its own
RJBeads: I think making anything from start to finish is not ok. The seller needs to be hands-ond for a good chunk of the work, whether those hands are on thir computer, their fabric, whatever
abitabite: what if you have no choice buut to buy something from walmart? because you live where there is nothing but walmart stellaloella ?
babastudioPrague: Yes, I think some very famous studio artisans do handmade but might not describe their work as homemade.
nutnutgoods: supplies seem like such a grey area
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moxiedesigns: i think that disclosure of cupply sources should be optional -- i could choose to market my jewelry by mentioning that none of my components are purchased from walmart
CraftDiner: maybe there should be a "home based" rule so people with commercial warehouses no they cannot sell here.
ButterflyChic: yeah if my supplies were handmade by someone I'd totally promote them in that listing, like handmade beads in earrings or a necklace but genral supplies, no
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jorgensenstudio: different trades/media have different skilled positions, Rokali it depends
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LiciaBeads: so if a business want's to grow, they ultimetly have to leave Etsy because they will need more employees to maintain production.
HeyMichelle: Are people saying that the suppliers are relevant for whether the shop belongs on Etsy?
HeyMichelle: ?
stellaloella: abitabite, that's fine. butgain, the BUYER should be able to decide where their money goes, right?
moxiedesigns: but i would never force someone just getting started to say that they DO buy from walmart -- it makes it sound like something is wrong with them
ebbandflo: do we really want to allow such discrimination stellaloella, there are etsy sellers here from all walks of life
trinlayk: ...revealing sources also worries people worried about being copied.
dancingcircle: it seems to me there's a level of success where folks say etsy is not longer viable
warhorse: perhaps your time with etsy could be a consideration to how many employees you have
jorgensenstudio: for me the formation and fabrication of the metal is skilled, polishing and packaging is not.
SecretLentil: idea: what if there was a sort of tag system for accountability - with different tags for "i make it myself" "i have family help" "i have meployess" etc and
Rokali: right, we want to create some basic rules that keep the Etsy spirit, and ultimately allow the buyer to choose
PsycoHatress: i buy some supplies from walmart only cause i have NEVER foudn them anywhere else
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trinlayk: and though tI don't have the copy worry, I think my supplier list could be bigger than my shop.
sococreative: now that wouldn't be right. for example bath & body sellers don't need to say where they got their fragrances from
curbsidetreasure: but people having to leave etsy bc they are too sucessful isnt fair to them
jorgensenstudio: in pottery skilled maybe throwing the piece, but not loading the kiln
Employee for packaging/shipping: ok?
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DoubleDippedSweets: I LIKE THE TAG IDEA!
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twigsandheather: Etsy is growing so fast that there may be a point where some artists out grow it if they start needing employees. They may have to leave even if they have been really sucessful here. There will always be new artists that will want to join. Therefore Etsy can still keep their handmade pledge.
bittercherryemporium: so, hang on, what if I get glicees made of my original art, I didnt do anything in the process of making them -- so, its not handmade by me. where is the line there?
stellaloella: disclosing supplies is a side topic, we should put a pin in that for now
warhorse: I would be much more ok with a seller who has been with ETSY for YEARS as opposed to someone who just started yesterday
babastudioPrague: The tag idea is quite a good one Lentil.
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ebbandflo: sellers are already starting to look into complying with the lead content laws for their customers - that's an ethical step. are you now saying we shouldn't be buying fom certain suppliers too
vital: love the tag or category idea!!
abitabite: stellaloella that puts people like me at an distinct disadvantage. If i didnt buy thread from walmart i would have to drive 2.5 hours to buy thread. And i would be being judged poorly on people who dont like walmart... trust me i would rather buy it elsewhere but i am not drive 2.5 hours both ways
ButterflyChic: Well I buy supplies from walmart cause it's 5 minutes away, closes craft store is at least 45 minutes away
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InspirationByFlorna: yes, definately
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ButterflyChic: IF it's a commercial supply I don't think it matters where it comes from
dennisanderson: So my question is this.... IS etsy just a "stepping stone" for someone who's business succeeds here?
moxiedesigns: good question dennis
BethMillner: 1. It is fine to have someone else do things for the business that aren't directly the product being sold. Shipping, Bookkeeping, Cleanup, Listing, Photographing work etc. 2. Items must be XX% made by shop owner.
vital: good ?
dancingcircle: my question too
Rokali: I hope people's businesses can grow ON Etsy?
piperewan: silk comes from china and india (third world countries) and it always has.
CharmingDarling: I think that if we have to start making all kinds of disclosures about supplies & husbands, etc, that there will be a significant number of sellers who a) lie or b) leave. If that's what you're looking for...
Rokali: yes
abitabite: i am screwed over enough for having to live in a small town, and not you want to screw me even more
55 yay, 4 nay, 26 abstain
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Rokali: not yes to that q
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moxiedesigns: i think some sort of transition out is much better than just kicking someone to the curb when they get "too" successful
Rokali: haha this is going so fast
RJBeads: I like BethMillner's #2 point.
jorgensenstudio: yes, dennis ..who expects etsy to be everything for everyone...not possible.
babastudioPrague: Yes, I hope business can grow here and not feel it has to leave the minute it's successful.
dennisanderson: i know rokali
trinlayk: piper, but silk is ALSO produced in Japan, and in the US.
warhorse: no, it shouldn't be - etsy should support it's large, long term sellers by allowing them more employees and lee-way - assuming they don't take advantage of that
PsycoHatress: on top of that... the local fabric shop buys their stuff from walmart... same type pattern and still has the sticker from walmart... why woudl i want to pay $3 more a yard for ikt
SecretLentil: and on your policy page people could see what ones have checked and also search by them
bittercherryemporium: If I get glicees of my work made, and i dont do ANYTHING in the process of having them made, how does that work?
curbsidetreasure: why should sucessful people have to leave
dancingcircle: I think some shop owners get jealous of others' success
Employee/s for listing/photos: ok?